[Tape 2, Side 1]

Jackson: Okay, so you're in the Naval communications personnel office, and they put you through a battery of tests. Where did they send you from there?

Canby: Over to the department where I ended up.

Jackson: Which was Intelligence?

Canby: Oh, yes. This whole base was intelligence. It said "Naval Communications" because that was a cover-up. Everything out there was intelligence.

Jackson: Where was this in Washington?

Canby: It was up northwest, at the corner of Massachusetts and something. Anyway, it had been a girl's prep school, Mount Vernon Seminary. That's where we were housed or where we worked.

Jackson: You went up there, and what did they have you do to begin with? What kind of jobs were you doing?

Canby: I don't remember what I was doing. I remember I was originally doing something. They'd send over work, and I was supposed to check for something. I don't remember what detail [job]. Then later I was assigned... it was all the same department, but I was assigned to this Lieutenant [John] Howard, who's the one I told you was a genius from MIT [Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, Massachusetts). And that's where I started working with math. That's one reason I think I got in there, because of my math background. He and I were working on permutations and all this high math stuff. This was routine. I'm doing the paperwork and the legwork-type of thing. But I was working with him, and there were several of us doing that. We were getting all these figure combinations. That's what I did from there on.

Jackson: Did you know at that time that you were working on breaking codes with just this math and permutations and probabilities?

Canby: I knew it had something to do with code-breaking because

when I first went there I had something to do with codes that were being brought in, radioed in to us through another place. They came here, and these guys did this, and we had translators, and we had all kinds of different people in different offices. But it was all under this main deal. I think I knew some of it then. I don't think I knew the whole thing, probably. I don't remember. Except I know that you don't say a word.

Jackson: How did they deal with security? What did they tell you?

Canby: You should ask my brother [Burton S. Pearsall]. Ask him when you see him--what happened when he came to visit me, the big Marine. Oh, we were guarded. There were double fences with double Marine guards all around the place.

Jackson: What did they tell you, though.

Canby: Not a lot.

Jackson: I mean, did they tell you, "Just don't open your mouth to anyone, " or did they give you warnings?

Canby: Yes, you don't discuss whatever you're doing. Of course, I didn't know as much then as I did a few months later, and that's why I ended up as an officer. But, anyhow, nobody discusses it. See, we weren't doing anything then. We were working on all the figures to get the machines going.

Jackson: But you had no idea what you were doing, anyway.

Canby: Well, sort Of, because we still had these little hand numbers, which they called an Enigma. You've seen that word.

Jackson: Yes.

Canby: Or we had a copy of it. That's what it was. It was a bunch of reels, four notched reels like this [gesture], and we turned them one letter at a time. "This doesn't work." I tried all these combinations with these. Then we'd get something, and we'd write it down. Then we'd have to send it back, and they'd unscramble it in Washington. They knew what they were looking for because they had the code books. We didn't.

Jackson: So, did you know that you were looking for certain numbers that would break...

Canby: Well, not that. We knew what type of code we were looking for, which was submarine codes.

Jackson: But you actually had Enigma machines that you were working on.

Canby: Not a lot, but I worked on them. Jackson: But you worked on them. Canby: But I ended up working under this one guy who was in charge of all this

Jackson: Lieutenant Howard.

Canby: Yes. Then we had some other guys. But, see, we were all working on this. When we came back from Dayton, it was different then. We had a different office setup. I don't remember if I knew the IBM men back there or in Dayton. I'm not sure. Maybe it was just before we went to Dayton. Anyhow, I was working on the figures and all the work behind it to get what it takes to get all these figures together to tell you how to build this and how to do this and that.

Jackson: Did they have you all working in a large room so that there was interaction between people doing it, like, "Have you tried this series?"

Canby: No, no, no. There wasn't that much. He'd tell me go work the permutation or any of these certain types of mathematical things, and, you know, I don't remember.. .he'd probably give me some figures and just do it. I can't remember. then if I had calculators, certain kinds, that I cculd work out with, but I know I was doing a lot of hand work and a lot of this. I didn't know then...I mean, I'd do what he told me, and then the "higher ups" (senior officials] would put them together to try to get what they were looking for. That wasn't necessarily the codes. It wasn't until we started working Enigma, and I didn't do that originally. I was doing nothing but paperwork with figures day in and day out.

Jackson: But then, later on, before you went to Dayton, you did work on some Enigma?

Canby: Part of the Enigma thing, because I was doing it since I got out there. That's when I broke it. Jackson: Well, if you were under such high security, where did they have you living? Canby: Downtown. Jackson: No guards, no nothing? [END OF EXCERPT]

Jackson: When did you find out you were going to Dayton? Was it just "pack your stuff, you're leaving tomorrow?"

Canby: I don't really tbink so. I don't remember. I just know be said, "We're moving this operation to Dayton, and you're one that has been picked to go." Not everybody

went. They hand-picked them. I think there were four of us girls, a couple of his officers. I don't think at that time we took any WAVE officers. I don't think he even had WAVE officers. I think we got them when w? were up in Dayton. I don't remember any WAVE going with us originally. There might have been. If there were, there were just one or two.

Jackson: So, about how many from your office went? About ten?

Canby: Let's see. What did I say, four or five girls? Probably, maybe, eight or ten of us from this particular proj ect went to Dayton.

Jackson: Were the other people male officers who were working, or were there male enlisted seamen also working with you?

Canby: We had one guy.

Jackson: You had one guy.

Canby: See, at that time we didn't have all this help. This is a special group working in an office on figures. We had no equipment. We didn't have anything, really, to do anything big with. We were just starting to develop that.

Jackson: You get to go to Dayton, living in a summer camp...

Canby: Have you ever been to Dayton? Hot, humid...

Jackson: (Chuckle) Typical Midwest summer...

Canby: It's a river town. It's not quite on the Ohio [River], but it's not far. [Editor's note: Dayton, Ohio, sits on the banks of the Miami River, about forty miles from the

point at which it empties into the Ohio River.]

Jackson: But you were living in a summer camp from the National cash Register company. Describe this place that you , were "condemned" [sacastic remark] to live in.

Canby: It was just a camp, just 1 ike any camp you went to. Just .an ordinary camp with cabins, "johns" [common toilets] in them, mess hall, a dining room. We did have a pool, though, and that was neat.

Jackson: Tennis courts?

Canby: It may have. I don't remember, because I wasn't playing tennis. Then we would walk down the hill to NCR [National Cash Register company], and they had turned over a building to us to work in. It was a lab-type thing. NCR down there, for their employees, also, had this big park and pool and all that, and we were allowed to use that, too. Now we are under reallv tight security. That's where it really gets tight because we are in the middle of a German Bund [reference to a group of wartime German sympathizers] area--Cincinnati and Dayton--so then we were told exactly what we would say if asked [by outsiders what we were working on]. [Editor's note: The southwestern corner of the state of Ohio was heavily populated with German-Americans.]

Jackson: What was it?

Canby: That we were working on some accounting equipment. Something to do with bookkeeping which tied in with NCR. (p. 71) But, we weren't.

Jackson: Did they [the military] pretty much monitor your comings and goings, then, if the security was tight?

Canby: Well, the girls were allowed to go out and date. 1 think that there was one or two [instances] that something got back that they had "slipped" [had talked about their work to outsiders]. Boy, they were out of there in "nothing flat" (quickly].

Jackson: No second chances.

Canby: 1 don't think so, 1 don't remember.

Jackson: You just don't remember seeing them again (laughter).

Canby: No, 1 knew they were out. 1 was working with the top guy [Lieutenant Howard], so 1 knew a lot of things. That's why, when 1 got back to Washington, I was told, "You're going to officer's school." "1 don't want to be one of them." "Well, you're going to be because you know too much, and you're enlisted, and you're not supposed to know all of this." But, see, 1 worked with him directly. There was him and Fred [Fred Bailey] and Jim [Jim Butler] and, 1 think, Cliff [Cliff Olafson] and maybe one other officer. There was those four male officers. Maybe we had that other little guy. Then there was, I think, just four of us girls.

Jackson: And that's all who were working on this one...

Canby: Working on what we did. Now we're not the kids back wiring and all that. We, had nothing to do with that. I (p. 72) didn't even know how to wire one. We didn't have anything to do with that. But it was fun because I was working with these engineers and mathematicians. That's where I should have been all my life, you know, in that type of thing, but I couldn't get in because I was a girL Then we continued to work on that, but we had these guys working on this equipment, trying to get it going. We had the first experimental thing in there. I think it was the night before or something that I was working this "baby doll" and I fed in what [data] I got.. .

Jackson: When you are talking about working a "baby doll," what is it?

Canby: Well, I'm moving all these disks.

Jackson: So, this is where you had all the disks so that...

Canby: I had four of them. That's all Enigma has, is four.

Jackson: Okay. wait a minute. Let me back up. When you're saying your working the "baby doll," you're talking about working the little machine that you had been working with since Washington, as opposed to this giant thing they're trying to develop and build in Dayton. I just wanted to clear that up.

Canby: See, they'd started on that machine in Dayton before we went out. I don't know if they had any girls there, but they might have to start the wiring. They had some of the boys out there doing that. But for us coming in (p. 73) with the technical part of it, and that end of it, you see, we came a little later. I was sitting there trying to.. . because we were still trying to do there what we did in Washington, but out here we were going to speed it up with this new equipment. I was just lucky enough to get the combinations. Then we had to encode them to be able to send them to Washington, and then they looked against the code books that they had. Then they called back and said, "Hey, you just cracked one."

Jackson: What was it that you had cracked?

Canby: A submarine code.

Jackson: A submarine code. A German submarine code.

Canby: Yes, oh, yes, U-Boat.

Jackson: So, you were working entirely on the Atlantic War.

Canby: Yes. Originally, I was working only on submarines. I mean, there were other parts up there at the thing. We had a whole big division on Japanese; we had another one on the German Air Force and all that. But, see, I wasn't in that at that time. I was in U-Boats only.

Jackson: Your boss, Lieutenant Howard, he would give you a series of numbers or figures...

Canby: I don't remember.

Jackson: ... or something, and would have...

Canby: I don't know...

Jackson: .. .to figure out how they worked?

Canby: I don't know. We got something from them that some (p. 74) radio operator might have intercepted. It was all just a bunch of numbers. Did you ever see a cryptography?

Jackson: Yes

Canby: That's the type of thing. so, then you have to take this and work it. You can do it by hand. We used to do that. That was part of our job. And there's a code. For instance, "Ts" are so many in a sentence and all this kind of thing. But then we'd start working and working and doing this, like, saying, "This '1' is going to be a '2,' " and then we'd work all these combinations. You'd take four [numbers], and how many numbers would we have? Ten? Yes, from one to ten or one to zero. So, there were four of those, but there are so many combinations. You're talking--what--five, six, eight hundred or more combinations. I can't figure that anymore. I used to know how to do it, but I can't now. But that's basically what the machines did, only faster. They were a combination of electronic and mechanical at that time.

Jackson: Why is it that they moved your office up there?

Canby: Because that's where they were developing the machines, and they wanted us there to start working with them.

Jackson: And to see if they would work and to iron glitches out immediately.

Canby: And get it moving.

Jackson: See how it was actually doing. You are in this Bund area, (p. 75) and you're under high security, and you've been told to keep quiet.

Canby: To a degree.

Jackson: They're not restricting your movements.

Canby: But they're restricting your mouth.

Jackson: They're warning you, very much so. Could you still go into Dayton? could you still go out?

Canby: Oh, sure. We weren't restricted in activity because that would attract attention. If we had to all march together, if we had to... those guys would move in one way or another. We had to be terribly careful if you were in a bar or restaurant because somebody could sit behind you. Those are the places you had to be careful.

Jackson: And they warned you about that kind of stuff.

Canby: Yes. Once we were down working, we had to go through a big gate and guards there to get into our building. We had guards up at the camp, at the entrances and stuff. I don't think we had guards parading around the fence. There was a certain amount of that, but that was more for protection, I think, than anything.

Jackson: They just basically told you to keep your mouth shut, and if anyone asked, you were working on accounting machinery or equipment or problems. Did anyone ever ask you what you were doing?

Canby: Not me. But I'm sure some of those guys with some of these girls in the bar did. That's the kind of place (p. 76) where they'll get you. They'll either overhear, or they'll throw something in and trip you up.

Jackson: With a couple of drinks.

Canby: Yes, that's what I mean. Then they can trip you up, because these guys were pros when it comes to getting information. The German Bund weren't just a bunch of dumb farmers. They were out there to find out.

Jackson: How long were you in Dayton?

Canby: We were there that whole summer practically. I think I said we went in...I don't know...June, maybe or the end of May, somewhere in there. We came back in probably September or October, maybe more like October, because I think I was back two months and then went to Northampton. It was somewhere around there.

Jackson: What was the security like coming back? Did you bring the machine with you when you came back from Dayton to Washington?

Canby: We were the first bunch to come back. Everybody that went ahead of us girls--and this caused a big problem when those of us who were enlisted got to Washington-- had either been pregnant...and at that time you were not allowed to stay in the Navy if you were pregnant, married or not. Or they had been a security risk, done something bad.

Jackson: Everyone who went to Dayton ahead of you.

Canby: No, that went from Dayton back to Washington.

(p. 77) Jackson: They were all pregnant or a security risk?

Canby: They all had something wrong with them. They were on their way out, okay? So, we were the first "legitimate" ones (laughter), and it was the officers and the four girls and a couple of the WAVE officers. We went back together. That's all. The rest were all still there. We still had officers out there with them, but I think that's who we took--a couple of the men and a couple of the women and Howard. We were to meet down at some restaurant or something to get onto the train. I got down there, and he [Lieutentant Howard] came up to me, and he said, "Well, we're going up the street for a while." We had eight of the machines, I think, on the train.

Jackson: These are the code-breaking machines that had been developed.

Canby: Well, they were computers. They were the first computers. Only they weren't the big, huge ones, but these were the ones we got down to maybe... well, they were longer than this [gesture] --bigger, but not tremendous. I think there were eight of them, but I'm not sure. At least we had the equipment on and loaded on the front part of the train, and then we were going in passenger cars behind it. Well, of course, there were guards around and everything. Well, they caught some of those guys.

(p. 78) Jackson: They caught what guys? Bund guys?

Canby: Guys that were going to [commit] sabotage.

Jackson: Really.

Canby: Really. Nobody knew that but John and me. John was the head of it.

Jackson: John who?

Canby: [Lieutenant] Howard.

Jackson: Oh. Canby: He's the guy that quietly told me, but the others didn't know it. Finally, they said. "okay." They had everything secure, so we got on the train. The equipment was still with us. We went from Dayton to Washington. Now we didn't get Pullmans. We were in sit-up cars, ordinary cars [passenger coaches]. Some of the kids slept. Two of us didn't because we knew what we had on the train with us and what the problem was. It was kind of a sleepless night.

Jackson: In other words, the security leaked somewhere if they were out to sabotage those cars. Did they know specifically, or did they just know it was something?

Canby: I don't know the details. All I know is that I was told that they caught either guys that were going to commit sabotage or were [acting] suspicious up around the equipment. Now whether they were loading them and they saw something or what, I never did know the details. But I know that that's the last time that personnel and (p. 79) equipment ever went on the same train. Jackson: Really. That's true. They could have gotten you all at one time, couldn't they?

Canby: And all the top ones. That was the last time. After that, all the equipment would come on one train, and the personnel would come in on another.

Jackson: And this is the Shore Patrol who's doing the guarding?

Canby: I assume.

Jackson: It was probably the Navy doing the guarding?

Canby: I assume. There might have been MPs down there--I don't know--or maybe special guards. Jackson: Interesting. canby: It was scary when I found out. See, there weren't very many of us, and I don't think the others knew. I don't think he told them. I think he said, "There's been a problem, and that's why we're late leaving." See, we got off-schedule. We didn't stay on schedule. They might have done that deliberately, too, because they may have known down the line, when the train was due and now we're running on a different schedule. I don't know any of those. I'm just guess ing .

Jackson: But during wartime it was not unusual to have delays in transportation. . .

Canby: No.

Jackson: .. .so people wouldn't have questioned: "Oh, well, we're delayed. "

(p. 80) Canby: No. Because they stopped trains to let troop trains through, equipment trains and all that.

Jackson: Were you all put right through (chuckle)?

Canby: I don't even remember that. I was so tired, and it was at night. I don't remember sleeping at all, but I may have.